Is Bourbon Dead? | Ep. 131

From limited-edition bourbon to highly anticipated rye, these are the whiskey releases still to come in 2025 that you’ll want to know about before they hit the shelves. Matt, Jason, and Jordon break down the bottles we’re most excited for, why they’re worth your attention, and which ones might disappear fast once the hype hits.

Whether you’re a collector, a casual drinker, or just want to stay ahead of the curve, this list covers the upcoming whiskeys that could define the rest of 2025’s drinking scene.

#whiskeyreleases #bourbon2025 #arsenicculture

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Transcript

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Trends happen and you have to watch them. And if you have a business, you need to keep your business in mind, not just your tradition. There's one distillery though that's doing it. Buffalo Trace slash Sazerac Welcome back to Arsenic Culture. I'm Matt. I'm Jason. I'm Jawdy. Jordan's name gets like a little, has a little more inflection on it. Every, every time. No, the more, uh, the more drinking we do. I know. I was like, I swear he is sober at this point. I'm pretty sure. And Then he says his name and he is like, um, I ta. Oh yeah. Welcome. Um, no, we're hanging out. We're drinking. We just, we we've been trying. a God, I wish you could like see the table from the the camera. but see it for most of mine. Yeah. You all got a lot over here. like under my camera, there's 1, 2, 3, 4. There's four bottles over here. We got a coffee over here. A little Pick me up, had to get a little caffeine. Hadn't had in a long time. We're, we're gonna hit that a little bit. It's been a long three three days. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, but yeah, welcome back to the show. We're hanging out, we're drinking bourbon. Uh, we're having a discussion here. We're talking about bourbon in general. Jason's, uh, pulling out some. Rare bottles over here. I don't know if they're rare, but this, this one might be, I mean, eagle rarer. Yeah, Um, Yeah. And we are, uh, talking about bourbon in general. Now, we have discussed this multiple times. Um, we, this whole, this channel is about like spirits in general food, just kinda like the culture of things. Yeah. Um, but we got our, we got a heavy hand in bourbon, um, And Jason's always bringing over the goodies and. I don't argue with him. I just drink 'em. And, uh, but like we have talked about bourbon multiple times in the past, and it is, we're at at an inflection point, right? now because bourbon has been huge. It was, you know, it was, it was really down for decades. It's gotten a surge. secondary markets blown up. We've done. We've done technically two episodes in the secondary market. One on how to navigate it, two on like the actual benefit or, you know, the drawback of. it. Um, But just like kind of addressing bourbon in general. I'm gonna say, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say something that it, it could be a toxic term, it could be polarizing, but it bourbon dead or is bourbon dying? Yeah, and I think at, it's on the tip of a lot of people's tongue. Um, But there is, I mean, there is still a lot to be excited about. We just finished filming and we'll probably release an episode on what to look forward to. There's a lot of good bottles out There still. But just the way, the state of things. are, Um, if you just. Take the bourbon itself outta the equation, the natural state of, um, industries. a lot of, a lot of them, especially consumer goods, they're cyclical. I feel like we're going into a, maybe another cycle, but like, let's, let's talk about bourbon. Let's go into a deep dive about where we were, where we are, where we're going, and what we can expect. In the future. I like it. Let's re-talk about everything we've been talking. about. You, you start. You start. That's, the end of the episode. We're done. So I think we'll start in the past a little bit just to touch on it. Okay. So in the past, let's look at the seventies and eighties. That was before I was drinking. I'm assuming before anybody here was. Oh, seriously. Yeah. I mean, I don't think I was drinking until like utero. Yeah. I was nine. But no, you look at that and there was a glut. So you had the glut period essentially in the seventies and eighties. Um. You had a ton of barrels. You had more barrels than demand, so you were just hurting. So you had distilleries closing, you had the decanters. Even before that, people were doing it was not popular. It was not popular gins, everything like that was more popular. Yeah. So you look today, I mean, during COVID, before COVID, it was still very popular. Bourbon was. During COVID, it hit just a crazy spike. Oh yeah. Crazy. Spike Secondary, all the, you know, just avail, people's clamoring for it. They want to get it right, but after COVID, after the pandemic, it's really kinda went. People say it's a market correction. Mm-hmm. But I think it's a crash. Okay. I, I, do, I think it's a crash no matter how you wanna spin it. Um, you're looking at all these distilleries, so now we're talking about present. All these distilleries are closing. Yeah. They're laying off workers. They're not hiring new workers. Their closing expansions plans, all this stuff, they overcommitted in my opinion, and they didn't, they didn't learn from the past. It's almost like it's repeating itself. Yeah. Right. Yeah. That's the reason we started in the past. I mean, you could say it's a lack of foresight. Maybe, you know, the way the trends go, like I said, it is, it is slick cyclical, but you see all that green, it's hard to just be like, oh no, we're gonna wait it out to the next cycle. You'll be like, let me jump in on it. It, It's, it's greed. I mean, bottom line. I didn't mean to interrupt you. Go ahead. No, and a good, here's a, here's a good point that I think everybody needs to realize When something like this happens. Don't panic. It's the natural progression of things. Things get cool, things get uncool again, And the thing that I think people need to realize about the whiskey and alcohol business in general is. The, the, the money that people spend on alcohol now, even compared to the past, whenever, uh, you know, bourbon wasn't as popular as it once used to be. Uh, okay, nevermind. But I was I was following you. I was, I No, I was following you. Go No, but they're making more money now than they ever People Oh, sure. though, even though everybody, but I, I do like what Jason said over committing, uh. That is the main problem that occurred with a lot of the legacy distillers. Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And. the newer ones the newer one, still The newer distilleries that didn't catch on to the growth of bourbon. And, uh, got Garrett County distilling that closed for leaving to open the doors. Yeah. That was insane. And that was a, that was, gonna be a Huge. project too. Yeah. They all their creditors. Yeah. Now in the news, you have Uncle Nearest, we've done an episode on. Near green, the past maybe a little shady how they began that company, whatever, open interpretation, but they're hurting, they're sued for a lot of Are they really? Okay, I didn't Um, it just happened this week. Well, you said something in my little intro there. It's like we're talking about, is B or we talked about like, you know, bourbon being down sales and you mentioned just a kind of an aside. It's like no, people are still buying bourbon and That's true. People are still buying bourbon. You know, it's, it's, you you have to kind of like. Analyze it from different perspectives. And Jordan, to your point, you said something too, you said don't panic. And that's kind of the flip side of it. who needs to not panic. We are not panicking. We are the No consumer. I'm happy. Yeah. a lot of positives to like to there not being as much demand. There's gonna be more availability, prices are gonna correct themselves. Um, you can start not having to like dip into your 401k to get a fricking bottle of eagle rare. or rare 12. Yeah. Eagle rare 12. Exactly. But if you're a distiller and you're in the middle of an expansion, do you need to panic? Maybe if you bought, if you were one of these investors that went in on like 20 cases of Pappy, do you need to panic? Maybe. I don't know. Like that's yeah, so there's two different questions there, two different statements looking that, so look at secondary, you know, that's a panic if you bought, it's the hot. But I think now, like you have a lot of NDPs, so non distillery producers, they don't make their own product. They buy barrels from people and then release it under a brand name. A lot of those people are hurting because they bought barrels. We've talked about this before. They bought barrels at the height of those barrels, prices, thinking it was still going up. Now it's down. It just, it just keeps going down. So like you're screwed if you're sitting on product. You bought it at four years old for a hundred dollars, let's say. Right? And it's a to 8-year-old and you still had a hundred dollars in it. Yeah. Well now people can buy 10-year-old barrels for $80. Like, all of a sudden your position is, you're, you're out, you're done. On, on the flip side of that, I truly believe that NDPs are the future outside of a legacy distillery that's already well established, right? I think NDP, uh, produ producers are the, are the future because. Here's the cool thing about it. I can buy, if you're part of A NDP, you can buy a barrel from MGP and release it. You know that week that you buy the barrel, if you already have the packaging already in place, you can do it. But the cool part about it is like, uh, the guys at Bourbon, uh, pursuit, pursuit spirits. Yep. They have three different producers. That they source barrels from, and then they blend it to their liking. And that's a cool part about it. Sure. That's something that would have never happened if a consumer or, uh, these NDPs would just release the barrels that they would buy from brokers. The blending aspect of NDPs will help them, I think, stay afloat. Sure. You know, and I think that's super unique. I agree. I think it gives a variety too, to your customer, right. So you're not, you're not tied to just a bean profile. No, you could have, you know, if you're Jim Beam, you have one profile essentially. I mean, you might have some variance, but with them, with an ndp you could have Barton and Beam and Heaven Hill and mgp. So I do think that's a possibility. Here's the problem with NDPs. In my mind, you are only as good as your, as your barrels released. Like, I mean, I can't, I can have a great label and I can have a history, but if I start releasing single barrels, yeah. If I start having single barrels that aren't great or. If Jordan's brand NDP is better than mind, people's gonna flock to him. So you don't have any brand loyalty, I don't think, to you as an I agree. I think you're both right. So you say Jordan, you say NDPs are the future. And I think they are in the near term, but near term is also kind of, a a dynamic term because um, we're not talking like it's the future indefinitely. We're not saying the present For pre, it's the present near Yes, exactly right. Because if we're going by the cyclical nature of things. We could see another surge in 50 years. So just say hypothetically. speaking. Okay. and, and here's the thing, if you don't think that these legacy distilleries like Beam brown foreman, uh, Buffalo Trace, wild Turkey, heaven Hill, they're taking notes. Oh, yeah. About what all these NDPs are doing on the innovation Yeah. Not only that, but I, I think when you have, um, in the glut period, when you have like a surge like that. I think you are. Um, it, it's not right to say, it well, There are other producers that could or will become quote unquote legacy producers. Like you said, it, you know, it's just like if you got staying power, we talked about these guys right here, new riff. Okay. We just opened this bottle here. It's a, it's a good bourbon. It's, They've come a long way. Oh yeah. You know what I mean? But it's their own product too. It's their own product too. Like these guys. You know, given enough time, they could be, I'm not saying they will be, but like, they could be on the same pedestal as, you know, like a, like a Woodford or something like that, say NDPs are are new and, and they kind of are, but then you look back, we did an episode at Pat's house. Yeah. A h Hirsch. Yeah. That's an ndp. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you think about they didn't make any of that. That's a label There's opportunity on both Yeah. But, but you're only as good as that release. Yes. And then you look back at like, there's some weird labels. We saw him at his house, like a Monument Valley, I think it was. Remember I was trying to scramble and figure out where the hell it came from. Crazy. random people. You had all these labels back people were like stumbling over themselves. and like Tried to get it just 'cause but, but back then they weren't, you know, so what you were doing is you would have that, remember, I think what they did is you would have a distillery, so like it's buffalo trace. Yeah, and then what Jordan could do is rent Buffalo trace for a day. They would change the name from Buffalo Trace to Jordan's Distillery. Is that literally true. that's what they would do. They would go in there and bottle that shit. That's crazy. And then sell it under, it would say bottle that Jordan Distillery, Frank Frankfort, Kentucky. Yeah. Yeah. So essentially, again, it's cyclical, right? So this happened back then. It's happening now. A little bit different, but it's the same shit. Yeah, it's the same shit. So, I mean, but yeah, I think you're both right. I think in the near future NDP. probably is the way to go. But, and then to your point, especially with the selection of barrels, you guys Oh, it's crazy. It's crazy right now. I for the price too. you're, getting in it. Yeah. Fucking we need to start an ndp. Yeah. Probably, probably wouldn't make it to, there's already come. nobody watched this episode. Jordan's already let the secret out. We screwed ourselves Well, there's, there's, no secret. Uh, because. and we were talking about this earlier. Mm-hmm. And this might be too early tie in to what we're talking about. but You tied. it in whenever you want. Being in the brewing industry and you guys being beer fans, like we all know from years of being fans and, and, working in the industry, there's a lot of parallels between Oh, huge. Uh, right now with the b what's happening in the bourbon world? What happened in the beer world? Right. Uh, you know, the the last time I checked, and I haven't checked in a while because it just got to be an egregious number, but the last time I, I checked there was like. I. Over 10,000 craft breweries in the United, Okay. Okay. and there was a point where I read that the average American lives within one and a half miles of a brewery. I can see that. I don't, 20 years ago I would've never imagined that. No, that seems insane. the growth in that, years ago, breweries didn't even exist. except for a BM Bevin. years ago. You know, it ain't that long. 12 years ago. in Lexington There was not even a tap room for brewery. Yeah. And yeah, Lexington Beer works. Maybe So, so, so look, what, what was the one that was down, down on a tap room for a Well, no, I beer bar's tap. Not, That's right. No, not. Do you remember the one that was down off Harrisburg Road? It was like Lexington Brewhouse or something like that. Lexington. It was Lexington Brewing Company. That's what it was. Lexington Brewing Company. Do you not remember that? We had an actual, like, craft brewery before craft breweries were popular. I, I, have the, were tilted, K. Yeah. So I have this old, I have this old, do remember that. I do I have this old menu picture saved from that. But Really? I, had, that was before I was 21. We were kids. We were kids. I remember my, my ex-brother-in-law took me there For dinner one day and I was just like, just seemed like a restaurant to me. But that was, that was legit. But we were kind of talking and cutting up about like. uh, the similarities are really eerie between the, the brewing world and the distilling world, And I think a lot of that comes from distilleries. Were so just hell bent on staying old school like traditional. No. We're tradition. think about beer and that's, that's kind of my next point I was getting into is like, looking at now what's popular. It's, it's a lot of finished whiskeys, a lot of finished bourbons, right. You know, with good times, and we've, we've had some of their stuff on our, on our show. You can say what you want about it, but it's flavorful. It's, you can say however they make it, whatever, but there's all kinds of things on that. Look at, look at breweries. Back then you had people pissed off because of an hazy IPA or an adjunctive barrel age stout. Right. This is a fad Uhuh now it's like who can get the most flavor in beer? You know, back then Yeah. Now that's what's happening in bourbon. Even. Even with, yeah. Non-ag adjuncts, like they're not adding honey or whatever to it. Yeah. They're trying to use different types of corn or it in a different barrel. Like Ana or mis, this is how you stay afloat. a hundred percent. But they're growing. They're growing exactly like beer did a decade ago. Not, not just variety, but like staying in. You gotta innovate. You gotta innovate. I'm gonna give you a um, a kind of. Not quite off topic, but a little off topic analogy. We're talking about beer and stuff too. We're talking about bourbon. Okay. The bourbon industry. But we're talking about where it's going and how to navigate it, how these companies are navigating it. I'm gonna talk about a brewery called Almanac Beer. You ever heard of Yeah. Heard of 'em. You heard of it. You heard of it? Do you know what they're doing now? No. Are they still? No. They're doing like hard seltzers. They're doing, um, kids in playgrounds. They're doing, um, they, whoa, they're doing what? they dropped, um, beer From the name of the company. Oh, okay. It's just Almanac. It's like Almanac something now, I think. But it's like Almanac playground or something. name does whatever. I Exactly. They saw the trend of beer going down and instead of like sticking to their guns saying We're gonna stay traditional, we're gonna do it the way we've always done it. Um. there was two guys that were, uh, involved in the company in creating it. Fred and Bubba. Yeah. something. Yeah. Well, let's go with that. That's, that's probably true. There was one guy that was kind of like the behind the scenes, there's always a, a guy that is the production guy, the brewer, and he's the traditionalist. And then there was a guy that was kind of front of the house kind of marketing. Are we on? Good? There was a guy that, was kind of front of the house marketing and just kind of like staying Um, relevant, right? Yeah. Um, the guy, the behind the scenes guy ended up saying like, we're going in a direction I don't want to go. The guy, the front of the house, front of the scenes guys was like, if we don't go this direction, We're gonna be obsolete. And a lot of breweries were, They ended up dying. They're still closing by Like the hundreds. Um, the other guy got bought out, left or whatever, and now they've rebranded, they're still making beer. But, Uh, you remember they had a strong push towards sours. That's all they had. were huge them. Yeah. Um, and that went to the three 70 fives. The, the front, the front facing guy had to convince the back guy that we need to get into hops. They got into hops. Hops is what ended up like keeping 'em in afloat and then like hops went down and then all of a sudden it's like lighter stuff. Na it's hard seltzers. And he's adapting. All of a sudden it's kids in breweries. And he started adapting. He put a fricking playground in there. We're gonna talk about that in a different episode. because That is also a very polarizing topic, but, um, and now they're thriving and they're like opening new locations and they're, and they're being, the whole point of the moral of that story is that trends happen and you have to watch them. And if you have a business, you need to keep your business in mind. Not just your traditions, not just your, like your There's You know, die. That's right. There's one. There's one distillery though that's doing it that you probably don't even realize. Okay. And that's Buffalo Trace slash Cach. Okay. They not only have probably the most. Probably, probably the most, the best. We'll quote that in the air. Okay. Bourbon like, I mean, people were sure, like here we're opening Eagle Rare 12, which is brand new hot bottle. You got Eagle Rare 10, which honestly you can't find too much of. Now it's getting more readily available. So we're trying those two on the show. But I asked Chad GBT yesterday, who's the best distiller in it say? Well, it Gave me the runaround, the first answer, and I said, no, just pick one. Pick one. He said, I'd have to go with Buffalo. Correct. But not only because of Bourbon. They own Fireball. Yeah, they own Buzz Ball. They, yeah, they bought Buzz. Yeah. Like, I mean they're, they, I have, you know, gin, vodka, all this stuff. They are positioned, yeah, they portfolio. essentially Walmart or Amazon. They're almo. They're too big to fail. Like they get, they're so diverse. those brands were trending brands. those were emerging. Styles of product That was not in their wheelhouse at No, but it's it's variety. They got their hands in all these baskets, but Yeah, they're playing But, but, but listen, I think Wu-Tang said it ba best to diversify your bonds. You know what I'm saying? But, But listen, Jim Beam, been doing it for everything around me, but that too. That, Beam. Beam Suntory been doing it for years. You guys just had the minus 1 96, a couple, weeks ago. That is really good. That's made by Jim Beam in the United States. So like. There's d There's different hands and baskets. And it goes back to, to where, uh, we were talking about earlier where when you read labels, they're not gonna tell you who actually makes it correct. sits. They want that kind. They want but you know, when you put it. together, Frankfort, Kentucky, Bardstown, Kentucky, You can kind of put it all together. And you have to have your hands in a lot of baskets like that because you never know what the next consumer trend's gonna be. It could be. It could be influenced by something happened pop culture wise. Yeah. Through a celebrity, through a movie. Yeah. Yeah. Nobody ever knows. But you have to have your hands in all these baskets so you can adapt and, uh, You're right. Look at, look at tequila. Hell, we just did a, um, a celebrity booze episode. and tequila's huge right George Clooney the because Yeah, because of George Clooney. Um, but yeah, like te, everybody's coming out with tequila right now. And it's popular. And that has helped push the trend of tequila. As a, uh, liquor of choice amongst people going out, whoever's still drinking? nobody drinks. anymore, but yeah, Well, I think the younger generation isn't drinking as much. No, I mean, I think your next steps to talking about the future, like the, you know, further out, not just near future, I think what we're seeing on the shelves or the RTD cocktails we've talked about, I would say that probably trend keeps continuing. keeps continuing. Mm-hmm. I think the THC drinks, I mean, you look at our local, local scene here. We don't have THC. Marijuana is not legal in Kentucky. No. They do have a medical marijuana I think might be legal, but it's not even out yet. Whatever. But these are getting by because they're Delta eight, Delta nine. They're like a quarter molecule off of so it doesn't adhere to whatever. law is the same thing. medical marijuana, uh, storefront is being, uh, open in Beaver Dam, Kentucky, which is a very weird location to in Western Kentucky. Yeah. but you have a Beaver dam there. I'm probably a few. There's a beaver. There's it would be very ironic if there. was no Beaver. There, there There, is a damn brewhouse out there too. There's a brewery beavers might went on Dam brew house, or just it's was a beaver, I'd go on strike. So I, I want some royalties, you know what I there's beavers on strike. with picket fences. like use Our dams. down with scabs. Look there. Yeah. the the, the THC stuff. Uh, man, I and there's no alcohol. just, No, no. And, and. hemp local company. They're killing it. So we, we talked about this on a previous episode about the THC like seltzers, THC, like RTDs and stuff like that. It's a different type of consumption. Like when we drink Jordan, me and you are going out to a bar. We'll get a couple beers. We'll get six beers. If we're watching a game, hell, we might get eight. Yeah. Beers don't count, so it 20. Yeah. You know what, if you're drinking THC seltzers, how many of those are gonna Well, no, no, no. listen. you're gonna be that's why I, that's why I charge you $15 a No, no. Listen, if it's anything like the experience I've had with some of these seltzers sold locally in Kentucky there's, a, there's a delayed effect. So you could, you could probably pound. A couple of them, if you're if you're unaware. If you're unaware. And they're a relatively new product. But For all intents and purposes as intended, you're not gonna pound 10 THC seltzers like you're gonna pound 10. high noons. gonna need to, I'm gonna need Andy Beshear to do a uh, tutorial video. on do it, how it with Somebody doing time in the corner. time lapse, him sitting, her drinking, her eyes are all red like halfway closed. as She's doing, she's eating Doritos somewhere in the corner. Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. Monster. She's with one hand and like has like cheese puffs lick at her fingers. we can uh, we can do this. We can do this together. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Oh, that would be But I think though you look at it, a lot of people though, when you get home from work, um, it's kind of been a staple from the sixties back, I guess. You get home from work in the evening, they'll have a beer, have a glass of bourbon, have a glass of wine. I think that is what the THC seltzers looking for instead of having alcohol. You have one of those and go to bed. Don't have a hangover. I mean, of course if you get a hangover off one beer at night, I don't know what to tell you, but you need to drink more, I guess. But that, no, that's a valid point. I think you're exactly Well, you got instant relief, uh, with alcohol. in my opinion. Sure, I agree. Or you have the delay, the Kind of effect of so you gotta plan it out. But, uh, putting it all together, I think, you know, seltzers, I'm sure you guys have talked about it's still there and people still buy 'em, but it's. the Growth isn't there as, as it used to. be. But, uh, nobody knows what the next trend is gonna be. And I think, uh, when you try to box in what the future's gonna be in bourbon, I know you have some good notes on that. What, what are you thinking on that? I mean, we've talked about it. I think, honestly, I think just more distilleries are closing. I mean, that's what's gonna happen. Look at Jack Daniels Brown Foreman laid off. They eliminated 12% of the workforce. And then they sold globally. Yeah. Globally. And then they sold their barrel making facility. Right? Yeah. That's not a great outlook for one of the biggest producers. Yeah. So if you're a guy that's like, I think you're Heaven Hill, your Jack Daniels, your beam, your buffalo trace, they're fine. They're gonna make it. They're gonna figure it out. I think it's a smaller ones, like, you know, you look at it, um. Luca Marciano. Is that in Danville? They're, they're done. You know, our friends, and I hate to keep mentioning 'em, but they're are friends. Anthony and Kenny are up there at the mashup with Steven in New York at a festival right now. Really? I was talking to one of them this morning. There's already been brands pulled out of the festival this weekend. really? That aren't just pulling out, they're done.'cause they don't have a brand anymore, they're just, they're folding shop 'cause they can't keep it It costs a lot of money to send people out to those. And and, you know, we no, no, the, the whole, the whole distillery's closing, like, they're like, we're not gonna send anybody.'cause in three months we're done. Like we can't keep it up. So that's what I think you're seeing. I think NDPs will continue to be here. The barrel available availability is insane right now. Mm-hmm. Like, again, I think there's some crazy good barrels out there. And we saw it with Buff Turkey, you know, you saw those, but the price got a, was that when we had our spills Buff Turkey check out well, actually, actually, I think it was an episode. But either way, Anthony let us borrow a bottle. But um, you look at that, I think there, I think the limit for NDPs and stuff like that is price point. If you have a new label and you come out with a single barrel, it can be whatever. It could be Pappy that, you can't call it Pappy, but it's Pappy. If you're price that at$500, I'm not buying it. I wanna try it before I buy it. Yeah. You know, and some of the Buff Turkey, the Buffalo Trays distilled Wild Turkey recipe, they're going for $500 retail. I'm not buying that. I, I I'm just not. So I think, I think what we're seeing is we're gonna have to have a price correction for me. I think we're getting there. I but Jordan, Jordan disagrees. We're not there. Jordan disagrees though. No. Why so? here. I don't, I don't, I think, I think your point's valid. I'm I'm, I'm of the opinion, once the price is there, it's always gonna be there. Okay. Now you sound like every housing market pundit. Well, now I was telling Jason, uh. I'm gonna use McDonald's as, an example. okay. We Love S love So McDonald's has their premium offerings, right. But uh, over the years, some of their lower offerings have even gone up in price. Yeah. I remember the double, what they come up, the meal used to be like three bucks, four But what they come up with is a value menu. Right. Yeah. And I was telling Jason earlier, I think, uh, from some of the well-known distilleries, uh, we started to see that. 7-year-old, uh, old Fitzgerald, a hundred proof bottle and bond for 60 bucks. Right now it's six, it's 60 bucks, but a 8-year-old in a different bottle. is gonna be you know, 120 140 Secondary, way more than that. Yeah. Same with old granddad. Oh granddad. seven year bottle and bond for 40 bucks. You got, uh, just a bunch of other well aged offerings. Look at Penelope Weed. That's, that's a low weed cole on. I wanna see how your time McDonald's into here. Keep keep going. But mc, so McDonald's still has their high end premium product, like the Big Mac, or for example. right? People are still gonna keep buying it no matter what the price. Eventually there will be a ceiling, but they're never going to go back down in the price for that, in my opinion. Okay. You're also comparing the food chain that says we've sold over a hundred billion burgers. Compared to a distillery that, or a, like, like any distillery that sold how many bottles, those are, those are big boy distilleries though. Like They, they've sold a lot and you know. Yeah, but not, they're not, sold, they probably sell that many units, maybe, I don't know. A A hundred billion. No. No, no, no, That's, those are Don't pay attention to me. I'm sick. I, I I mean, under the weather. to sit down. I had to sit down. Damon, I'm Sit down. I'm sorry. I think so. McDonald's. boards. Used to say they used to. go up. Do you remember? They count up how Many billions. It's got to the point where they can't count any higher and they just stopped. put that in perspective. Yeah. It like, but more than you think, you know. But, uh, it might come back down, but I think there's always gonna be people. and I'm including that crowd myself. Yeah, I'm too. there. I don't even taste stuff and I'll pay hundreds of dollars to buy a bottle, but just because I'm Yeah, too. I agree. I'm, I'm on the piggyback of people saying, you don't wanna miss this and just again, Just to kind of throw in on the McDonald's metaphor, fast food doesn't hit cyclical cycles. They, they don't cycle like bourbon does. There's not a glut and there's not like a peak. I mean, it's just fast food's. like. it's I think he, I think he's talking about pri, I think he's talking about pricing though, right? that's what I'm saying. The pricing just follows, it. Just follows the economy. bourbon's fall in the economy too. I mean, I don't think our economy's great at the moment. I mean, you know, it can follow the economy. Yeah. it It doesn't always a alcohol hit. Historically though, people drink when the economy's bad. They drink when it's good. They drink. When you're making a lot of money, drinking, you don't have any money. Like there's, it's, it's, it's a recession proof industry. To a point. To a To a point, And what we're seeing right now and what we're talking about, what we have been talking about in addition to that is that there are other types of drinks that people are gravitating towards. We did an RTD episode ready to drink cocktails and why those are surging right now. Those are super popular and I hypothesized that a lot of that stemmed from COID people being locked down. People not being able to go to bars because you weren't allowed to physically, you weren't allowed To go out and go to a restaurant. Especially locally, we were, our our shit was shut down. Like maybe other cities weren't. I don't know, but it's like people want that. ex People wanted that experience. They couldn't get it by going out. So RTDs filled a gap. You know, ready to drink cocktail. I wanna go out to, you know, bourbon or Island, I wanna get a Manhattan. I can't do that. Oh, but you know what? Knob Creek makes a Manhattan in a bottle. You know, and I'm gonna open that. That's, that is a fun concept. Yeah. People learn to enjoy that. It became popular. I'm not saying that's gonna be like the main thing for the next 30 years. It's popular right now. Yeah. And there's a reason it. Here's my question. What makes, uh, whiskey bourbon popular again? What makes it cool again? Well, what made it cool again from the seventies and eighties? I think it's actually, I feel like it You think it's, Oh, okay. So I get what you're saying. Uh, do we go back Tradition, what we were talking about earlier. or is it all Go ahead. Oh, I was gonna say finished whiskey. Mm-hmm. Has been like something that's brought me back into the whiskey world. And you know, we were talking about dark hearts earlier. They do an awesome job. do. do. Uh, but does bourbon go back to tradition? Or do they move forward with? That. How a theory. I think you have to have both. I think you have a traditional line like, and then you have to have some experimental stuff, in my opinion. But if you look at like, where does it go? My grandpa enjoyed bourbon. My dad not so much, but I do. So I think it's like a skip generation thing. So I think the younger generation now, like my son is probably not gonna enjoy bourbon like I do. No, his son probably will. Yeah. So I mean, I think it's like a generational skip. Maybe. So here's, I have a, I have a theory on that. but I have a theory. We got tons of theories. I know you got any, is gonna be the longest episode. the longest, you got any Yeah. I'm gonna hypothesize here. Uh, allow me to opine for a moment. The period between 2000, let's say like 1995 to 2005, probably a longer period. when I was in my prime. Um, the things that were popular were the things that were, um, very JCO jeans and. If they were I might still have some of those. Yeah. Uh, we're, were like in consumer products, they were um, they were highly Mm-hmm. They were highly macro. Everything was big business. Good restaurant with TGF Friday's, Applebee's. Think about that. If you went out to eat back then you would go to fucking max and Irma's. Yeah. Do you remember Max? and I do. and Max and Irma's was the exact same as Applebee's. It was the exact same as Chili's. It was the exact same as TGI Friday's. They were all the same. And they were all macro. They were all big business Shoving the same thing down our throat, and that's what we were used to. We had grown into that During that period, and that was normal. That's what we wanted. Right. We had so much of quote unquote, a good thing that we got tired of it. Consumerism kind of flipped on its head. and You're used to it. You get bored. You do. And you're like, I want something. Artisanal. Artisanal became a thing and all of a sudden people are buying. Soaps made by hand. You know, at Whole Foods instead of Dove, you know, people are buying like honey from a local, Uh, apiary instead of a Kroger brand that's shaped like the little bear that you get, which those are. still I like those. Yeah. But like, so I think bourbon naturally followed suit because out of all the spirits. Think about all the spirits that you can buy. Rum, tequila, cognac. bourbon, anything else? All those other spirits are highly homogenized. Every single product is 40% alcohol. Every single product, Even they have multiple releases. They're all the same. They're all blends. They're all exactly what they want 'em to be. Bourbon was highly customizable. It was highly intimate, it was very artisanal. it was made a priority by the United States of America. Bourbon B and the state of They're they're strict. guidelines to keep you Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah. I'm sorry. Okay. I thought you were Yeah, I, you're right. You're right. That's exactly, that's exactly part of the point. It, it became a very artisanal thing and it was something that people could relate to when they were tired of the homogenization. They wanted to go to something that gave them like a more of an independent field. More of like, Like this is, this is different. This is like important. And I think, you know, that's what kind of like a, like helped make it popular was that whole artisanal movement because out of all the spirits. It is the most artisanal period. There is nothing, there is no other liquor, there's no other spirit More artisanal than bourbon. Yeah, because people don't do single barrels unless you're in bourbon, people don't do like special releases. I would agree. Yeah. Unless you're in bourbon. But we're like, we're, again, we're at an inflection point now. It's just like we're at saturation, prices are outta control and people are getting tired of that again, and that's part of the cycle. So where's it going? I think, I think the survival of the fittest. Right? So I mean, your Buffalo Trace stuff's gonna make it. I think your medium distilleries are not, I think they're gonna go under unless they get real creative real fast. Yeah. Um, and adapt. The other part of that is I do think sales are gonna continue to go down for your overall agree. Um, the higher end stuff's still gonna have a demand, but for myself, and I'm, I'm in the category of, I'll buy a lot of high end stuff. Mm-hmm. You know, bourbon wise. But I'm watching now, like I'm tired of paying three 50, $500 for a bottle that I'm like, I mean, it's pretty good. It's, so let's look at this one though. So Eagle Rare 12, right, and Eagle Rare. 10. You tried 'em? Yeah. Which one's better? I I mean, I think that the 12 is twelve's It's a little, It's more rounded than the A little better. That's right. So in my mind, I would say 25 to 30% better. Yeah, Yeah, that's fair. But, but secondary, if I can buy this one for under 90, the the 10 for under 90, and then the 12 for that's, that's kind of ridiculous, There shouldn't even be a secondary for eagle rare. No. 10. No. And it's coming down. It is, but And there may pretty much everywhere. not three times better. That, that's what I'm getting at. Like I think there's a point where people realize a consumer of I'm being taken advantage of. Mm-hmm. I think also we don't have brand loyalty right now. I don't. You asked me what my favorite bourbon brand is. I'd probably tell you. Wild Turkey or Four Roses. Yeah. But my collection at home, what I'm drinking on is, is everything you got a little bit of You know? So again, I want what tastes good. I want something off profile. I want single barrels, I want whatever. Yeah. But I'm not loyal to just one brand. As our let me ask you guys a question. So during COVID there is a bunch of new consumers into the whiskey game. Tons. So I I say consumers, I would say buyers. Well, I, I've kind of had. it In my head a little bit of, and this kind of came to me last year, whenever I went and drove to the, uh, old granddad 16 release at Jim Beam in a complete hurricane. It was one of the worst decisions I've ever made in my life. make makers, uh, cell menu all went to, oh man. like, have you ever. Did you see the new twister? No. Yeah, I have. I have. Yeah. he's putting down in the bottom of his truck. Anchor down. Yep. Anchor down. There's like cows like flying by. Yeah. I had to wait on the, I get my Does that cow have a Bring that Here. Get in line bitch. I had to wait on the interstate in Frankfurt for like, almost two hours 'cause there was a wreck. And uh, I, I made it there in time for the release though. But. Uh, the lady that worked at the gift shop there, she came out and she was like, thank you guys for coming out. Uh, y'all are y'all excited about this release? And everybody was like, yeah, we're we're pumped. And she said, well, if y'all want stuff like this to keep happening, make sure you guys keep buying Jim Beam White Label, 'cause that's what makes this all happen for everybody. not gonna buy that. Yeah, yeah. You say, yeah, sure. but, but yeah, everybody kind of was like, okay, whatever. Yeah. But what I wanted to kind of make a point about is, you know, in the beer world, right, there's certain things that we know we don't like, and, and we will, we know when stuff's coming out. and we will buy the higher end stuff. I think that's happening right now in the bourbon world. you know, maybe the, newer, maybe all the newer crowd that influx the cells back during COVID and even before COVID, they haven't acquired taste Now where they know what they like. And it's not the Jim Beam White label. Or, or, you know, uh, similar products. And I think everybody is, a. We'll always be buying the Les certain, uh, seasonal releases and Les. But, uh, I think people have preferred tastes now and it's not the 80 proof Jim Beam White. And guess what? Uh, that, uh, that whiskey probably takes up a huge chunk of growth and sales in the bourbon market. Well, it's probably a lot of, well, well bourbons. Yeah. You think And I don't think people are buying it anymore. No. Uh, I think people's tastes have evolved to something a little more refined. and, and better. If that would've been, that was my first entry point into Jim Beam's profile was the white label. If that would've been my only entry point into it. Only thing I tried, I would not be drinking anything Jim Bean. Like, it's just not my thing. And I think it goes back to you were saying Jordan, the people during the pandemic buying things you said to consumers, I don't think a lot of 'em are consuming. I think a lot of 'em were collecting true. And then I also think their, their, their path was guided by reviewers, which we're gonna do another episode on that one. Can you trust those reviewers that you're seeing online? How much market push do you get from those people? It's a lot. So, I mean, I think there's a lot to be said I agree. I agree. We can keep going, that's the thing. We've gone, we've gone a long time. We could, honestly, we could probably go another hour. on this. Hell maybe. we, will. Let's revisit. We'll do another we'll follow Let's just Live stream this. Hell yeah. Yeah. Hell yeah, dude. Like, yeah, it we can live stream on YouTube. I kept telling you we could do it with no how Yeah, Oh, sure you did. Uh, but this is a hot topic. It is a hot topic right now, so, um, but yeah guys, if you'd like to then share it, drop down the comments. Um, tell us if we're wrong or if you think, uh, bourbon is gonna go on the up and up, you're wrong. But, uh, yeah, if you'd like to share it and, uh, for more. Arsenic Culture you can check us out on all the socials we are@arsenicculture like, and subscribe on YouTube. We'll see you on the next one.